Why MS Doesn't Listen To Themselves?

why ms listen themselves

Why MS Doesn't Listen To Themselves?

Go download the Windows User Experience Guidelines at www.microsoft.com/downloads and have a read.
I am quite amazed at how much babbling is going on at MS like:
"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics. Windows XP-style graphics can be used in Windows Vista, but are also recommended to be updated to the new style and quality."
"When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead of a combination of radio buttons and a commit button. This allows users to select a response with a single click."
"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
uhh! Like as if MS does anyway... it's like telling off your students not to do this and that and at the you end up doing it yourself...
MS needs to show the software community *leadership* and not "bossiness".
Oh you want some backup evidence? Sure!
"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics..."
You got it MS! Your Fax program in Vista is still living in the Win 9x ages!
""When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead..."
The Sync Conflict screen is NOT using command links but using radio buttons.
"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
Calculator is obviously using Arial, a font that dates back to Windows 95, maybe earlier...
P.S. The Segoe ClearType font is excellent, on a positive note...
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

on a related note, one of the very first things I did on a Windows installation was setting the MS Shell Dlg font in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes to Verdana :)
now it's Segoe of course (though Verdana remains much more cleaner and UI-suitable)

Verdana is too "chunky" for dialog boxes. They wanted something similar to MS Sans Serif that they used and also was ClearType compatible. They obviously went for Segoe UI.
-- Zack Whittaker Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor) � ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk � MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net � ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum � VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase � This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
--- Original message follows --- "Adahn" wrote in message

on a related note, one of the very first things I did on a Windows installation was setting the MS Shell Dlg font in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes to Verdana :)
now it's Segoe of course (though Verdana remains much more cleaner and UI-suitable)

It was certainly better than MS Sans Serif and the spindly Tahoma :) until Segoe UI came of course
Nothing beats Chicago though ;p
"Zack Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" wrote in message

Verdana is too "chunky" for dialog boxes. They wanted something similar to MS Sans Serif that they used and also was ClearType compatible. They obviously went for Segoe UI.

"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100% consistancy, but they are trying. You *must* remember it's in Beta, and most of Vista is written in code form and Visual Studio... obviously a bit more complex than we'd ever see, but mind you, they get the code and the functionality there, so what about a bit of mismatched text, pppfff.
Just go easy on it - nobody's forcing you to test it or run it.
-- Zack Whittaker Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor) � ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk � MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net � ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum � VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase � This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
--- Original message follows --- <Nicholas> wrote in message

Go download the Windows User Experience Guidelines at www.microsoft.com/downloads and have a read.
I am quite amazed at how much babbling is going on at MS like:
"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics. Windows XP-style graphics can be used in Windows Vista, but are also recommended to be updated to the new style and quality."
"When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead of a combination of radio buttons and a commit button. This allows users to select a response with a single click."
"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
uhh! Like as if MS does anyway... it's like telling off your students not to do this and that and at the you end up doing it yourself...
MS needs to show the software community *leadership* and not "bossiness".
Oh you want some backup evidence? Sure!
"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics..."
You got it MS! Your Fax program in Vista is still living in the Win 9x ages!
""When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead..."
The Sync Conflict screen is NOT using command links but using radio buttons.
"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
Calculator is obviously using Arial, a font that dates back to Windows 95, maybe earlier...
P.S. The Segoe ClearType font is excellent, on a positive note...
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

"It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100% consistancy, but they are trying."
Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

It's still in beta for Christ's sake, send in a suggestion about it then... I've said before, they're not polishing off the UI quite yet, they'll get to the March CTP before they get onto it.
-- Zack Whittaker Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor) � ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk � MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net � ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum � VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase � This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
--- Original message follows --- <Nicholas> wrote in message

"It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100% consistancy, but they are trying."
Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

Hear you Nick.
Beware the dreaded "Feature Complete" and "Narrow Deadlines" responses though.
I must've started off as the most excited-about-Vista person on the planet, but with each progressive build it becomes apparent they started with, Hey, Let's rip off the latest Mac OS! after which everything was a byproduct of that; Aero, the new accessory apps, and...well, that's about it. All the under-the-hood changes do nothing that, at the end of the day, can not be achieved with XP. or do they?
This is THE chance for Microsoft to get rid of bad habits once and for all - the minor nuisances that've been embedded deep into the Windows paradigm since forever - without needing to be constantly reminded by the few people (heaven knows who) they actually listen to.
A delay of few more months into 2007 would be worth it and welcome if they can finally get this right.
Here's betting on the chances of at least a 100 glaring inconsistencies remaining in the RTM..
"Zack Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" wrote in message

It's still in beta for Christ's sake, send in a suggestion about it then... I've said before, they're not polishing off the UI quite yet, they'll get to the March CTP before they get onto it.
-- Zack Whittaker Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor) � ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk � MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net � ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum � VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase � This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
--- Original message follows --- Nicholas> wrote in message "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100% consistancy, but they are trying."
Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer suggestions...
And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!
How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?
"Zack Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" wrote:

It's still in beta for Christ's sake, send in a suggestion about it then... I've said before, they're not polishing off the UI quite yet, they'll get to the March CTP before they get onto it.
-- Zack Whittaker Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor) » ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk » MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net » ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum » VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase » This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
--- Original message follows --- Nicholas> wrote in message "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100% consistancy, but they are trying."
Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

Adahn wrote:

Hear you Nick.
Beware the dreaded "Feature Complete" and "Narrow Deadlines" responses though.
I must've started off as the most excited-about-Vista person on the planet, but with each progressive build it becomes apparent they started with, Hey, Let's rip off the latest Mac OS! after which everything was a byproduct of that; Aero, the new accessory apps, and...well, that's about it. All the under-the-hood changes do nothing that, at the end of the day, can not be achieved with XP. or do they?
This is THE chance for Microsoft to get rid of bad habits once and for all - the minor nuisances that've been embedded deep into the Windows paradigm since forever - without needing to be constantly reminded by the few people (heaven knows who) they actually listen to.
A delay of few more months into 2007 would be worth it and welcome if they can finally get this right.
Here's betting on the chances of at least a 100 glaring inconsistencies remaining in the RTM..

<snip>

--- Original message follows --- Nicholas> wrote in message "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100% consistancy, but they are trying."
Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
-- Nicholas...
"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

Fianlly, some *OBJECTIVE* feedback on Vista! :)

Eric wrote:

errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer suggestions...

Actually that's GOOGLE you're thinking of. A good many of its products are still *officially* in beta.

And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!

You can't hold up shipping forever. Someone will always have a contrary opinion.

How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?

There will be a public beta, but believe me, the private beta is getting *plenty* of feedback: probably more than any company can properly assess and react to.

Beta testers are actively contributing. If you are not a Beta tester, your immediate contributions are greatly reduced: http://support.microsoft.com/contactus/?WS=Wish But suggestions made in the public Vista newsgroups may be carried to the private Vista Beta newsgroups and on from there.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer suggestions...
And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!
How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?

That proves how much customer service they're willing to put in... Beta testers ONLY? what about CUSTOMERS?
One word... DISCRIMINATING!
"Mike Williams" wrote:

Eric wrote: errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer suggestions...
Actually that's GOOGLE you're thinking of. A good many of its products are still *officially* in beta.
And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!
You can't hold up shipping forever. Someone will always have a contrary opinion.
How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?
There will be a public beta, but believe me, the private beta is getting *plenty* of feedback: probably more than any company can properly assess and react to.

Eric wrote:

That proves how much customer service they're willing to put in... Beta testers ONLY? what about CUSTOMERS?
One word... DISCRIMINATING!

You should look up the meaning of "discriminating" in a dictionary. It actually has a positive connotation. You might be thinking of "discriminatory"....?
I actually think your complaint is that you either want 100% of customers to beta test or that you want special attention for YOU.
What makes you think that any of the current beta testers might NOT be customers?
Do you think your illogical thinking makes you a good beta tester?

i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?
and now, how are PUBLIC customers supposed to eail anything relevant to Vista whe, by the time Vista is publicly BETA released to the public, it's ALREADY DEEMED FEATURE COMPLETE?
So there you go... asking PUBLIC customers to give suggestions during FEATURE COMPLETE is like suggesting for Windows Vienna... another 5 years.... and do you honestly expect any feedback during feature complete will make any *material* change in Vista... I seriously doubt....
"Mike Williams" wrote:

Eric wrote: That proves how much customer service they're willing to put in... Beta testers ONLY? what about CUSTOMERS?
One word... DISCRIMINATING!
You should look up the meaning of "discriminating" in a dictionary. It actually has a positive connotation. You might be thinking of "discriminatory"....?
I actually think your complaint is that you either want 100% of customers to beta test or that you want special attention for YOU.
What makes you think that any of the current beta testers might NOT be customers?
Do you think your illogical thinking makes you a good beta tester?

Eric; Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers" Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one. That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product. If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that matter, send it in. There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know development is continuing on the next OS.
The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers, but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish to contact Microsoft about suggestions.
If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.
Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a variety of interests and computers. That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so. I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure. Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private Microsoft newsgroups. Others also have access through their corporate representatives. Others may have direct access to the Product Group. The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go. The better the access, the smaller the group.. To which group above should everyone get access. Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer numbers would drown the Vista team. Or do you draw the line somewhere else? Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.
As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL fail.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?
and now, how are PUBLIC customers supposed to eail anything relevant to Vista whe, by the time Vista is publicly BETA released to the public, it's ALREADY DEEMED FEATURE COMPLETE?
So there you go... asking PUBLIC customers to give suggestions during FEATURE COMPLETE is like suggesting for Windows Vienna... another 5 years.... and do you honestly expect any feedback during feature complete will make any *material* change in Vista... I seriously doubt.

OK I see your point...
But legal access before material suggestions still apply...
As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal Microsoft customers.
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

Eric; Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers" Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one. That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product. If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that matter, send it in. There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know development is continuing on the next OS.
The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers, but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish to contact Microsoft about suggestions.
If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.
Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a variety of interests and computers. That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so. I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure. Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private Microsoft newsgroups. Others also have access through their corporate representatives. Others may have direct access to the Product Group. The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go. The better the access, the smaller the group.. To which group above should everyone get access. Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer numbers would drown the Vista team. Or do you draw the line somewhere else? Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.
As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL fail.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?
and now, how are PUBLIC customers supposed to eail anything relevant to Vista whe, by the time Vista is publicly BETA released to the public, it's ALREADY DEEMED FEATURE COMPLETE?
So there you go... asking PUBLIC customers to give suggestions during FEATURE COMPLETE is like suggesting for Windows Vienna... another 5 years.... and do you honestly expect any feedback during feature complete will make any *material* change in Vista... I seriously doubt.

Eric wrote:

OK I see your point...
But legal access before material suggestions still apply...
As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal Microsoft customers.
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:
Eric; Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers" Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one. That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product. If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that matter, send it in. There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know development is continuing on the next OS.
The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers, but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish to contact Microsoft about suggestions.
If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.
Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a variety of interests and computers. That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so. I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure. Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private Microsoft newsgroups. Others also have access through their corporate representatives. Others may have direct access to the Product Group. The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go. The better the access, the smaller the group.. To which group above should everyone get access. Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer numbers would drown the Vista team. Or do you draw the line somewhere else? Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.
As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL fail.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
snip

Microsoft treats their customers like criminals with WPA and WGA. It will probably get worse with Vista. Sooner or later, people will get fed up and they will make that clear to MS!

lol! True
Actually there's more... all this DRM crap in Vista is going lock out your video card, monitor, and even speakers. Eventually, MS decides who plays your music...
"nubian" wrote:

Eric wrote: OK I see your point...
But legal access before material suggestions still apply...
As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal Microsoft customers.
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:
Eric; Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers" Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one. That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product. If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that matter, send it in. There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know development is continuing on the next OS.
The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers, but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish to contact Microsoft about suggestions.
If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.
Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a variety of interests and computers. That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so. I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure. Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private Microsoft newsgroups. Others also have access through their corporate representatives. Others may have direct access to the Product Group. The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go. The better the access, the smaller the group.. To which group above should everyone get access. Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer numbers would drown the Vista team. Or do you draw the line somewhere else? Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.
As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL fail.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
snip
Microsoft treats their customers like criminals with WPA and WGA. It will probably get worse with Vista. Sooner or later, people will get fed up and they will make that clear to MS!

Eric; As for fairness, that has little to do with Microsoft customers since that's life. If fairness is of overriding importance for any business, person, group etc, that business WILL fail in at least that endeavour. You are making it look like anything that does not include you is not fair.
To repeat what I said before "As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL fail"
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

OK I see your point...
But legal access before material suggestions still apply...
As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal Microsoft customers.

Eric wrote:

lol! True
Actually there's more... all this DRM crap in Vista is going lock out your video card, monitor, and even speakers. Eventually, MS decides who plays your music...

It's even worse than you think - Vista is bloated adware which is chocked full of DRM and ripped off it's look from OSX.
http://www.adrants.com/2006/02/microsoft-faces-obstacles-over-vista-welc.php
It also enables rootkits by allowing invisible processes.

"nubian" wrote: snip
Microsoft treats their customers like criminals with WPA and WGA. It will probably get worse with Vista. Sooner or later, people will get fed up and they will make that clear to MS!

This is not just about me... it's about the whole public community...
All MS customers SHOULD have a fair chance to inspect Windows Vista beta and give constructive feedback BEFORE its locked down as designated FEATURE COMPLETE.
All I'm asking is very little... they should at least make the April public CTP available for the public, and give 1 or 2 months chance to give feedback and THEN lock it down.
The way MS is going. ANY "influence-able" feedback are exclusive to previous CTP build BECAUSE at those times it was NOT FEATURE COMPLETE.
I hope I made my point clear this time, but thanks.
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

Eric; As for fairness, that has little to do with Microsoft customers since that's life. If fairness is of overriding importance for any business, person, group etc, that business WILL fail in at least that endeavour. You are making it look like anything that does not include you is not fair.
To repeat what I said before "As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL fail"
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message OK I see your point...
But legal access before material suggestions still apply...
As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal Microsoft customers.

Eric; Hopefully you have contacted Microsoft and given your opinion. It is probably too late for Vista, but there is always another OS and program in the works. Perhaps if enough share your view and express it to Microsoft...
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

This is not just about me... it's about the whole public community...
All MS customers SHOULD have a fair chance to inspect Windows Vista beta and give constructive feedback BEFORE its locked down as designated FEATURE COMPLETE.
All I'm asking is very little... they should at least make the April public CTP available for the public, and give 1 or 2 months chance to give feedback and THEN lock it down.
The way MS is going. ANY "influence-able" feedback are exclusive to previous CTP build BECAUSE at those times it was NOT FEATURE COMPLETE.
I hope I made my point clear this time, but thanks.

Hhi,
sorry if I was too harsh on you, but I really think that's how it should be...
I always wanted to tell MS about this... but on
http://support.microsoft.com/?LN=en-us&x=10&y=6
I don't seem to find a link to tell them about this
Any suggestions?
Thanks
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

Eric; Hopefully you have contacted Microsoft and given your opinion. It is probably too late for Vista, but there is always another OS and program in the works. Perhaps if enough share your view and express it to Microsoft...
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message This is not just about me... it's about the whole public community...
All MS customers SHOULD have a fair chance to inspect Windows Vista beta and give constructive feedback BEFORE its locked down as designated FEATURE COMPLETE.
All I'm asking is very little... they should at least make the April public CTP available for the public, and give 1 or 2 months chance to give feedback and THEN lock it down.
The way MS is going. ANY "influence-able" feedback are exclusive to previous CTP build BECAUSE at those times it was NOT FEATURE COMPLETE.
I hope I made my point clear this time, but thanks.

sorry i should've been
http://support.microsoft.com/contactussupport/?ws=support
There doesn't seem to be any link to comment on their internal processes :(
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

Eric; Hopefully you have contacted Microsoft and given your opinion. It is probably too late for Vista, but there is always another OS and program in the works. Perhaps if enough share your view and express it to Microsoft...
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message This is not just about me... it's about the whole public community...
All MS customers SHOULD have a fair chance to inspect Windows Vista beta and give constructive feedback BEFORE its locked down as designated FEATURE COMPLETE.
All I'm asking is very little... they should at least make the April public CTP available for the public, and give 1 or 2 months chance to give feedback and THEN lock it down.
The way MS is going. ANY "influence-able" feedback are exclusive to previous CTP build BECAUSE at those times it was NOT FEATURE COMPLETE.
I hope I made my point clear this time, but thanks.

Eric; This link may be the best. There used to be a better site but it seems to be gone. https://support.microsoft.com/common/survey.aspx?scid=sw;en;1214&showpage=1&WS=Wish
You can also try the wish Email address you mentioned earlier. Also if you see others having similar concerns, give them this information.
I may not agree with you, but I do want you to be able to send your opinion to where it can count for something since the message may not get across to Microsoft in these newsgroups.
Hope this helps...
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

sorry i should've been
http://support.microsoft.com/contactussupport/?ws=support
There doesn't seem to be any link to comment on their internal processes :(
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:
Eric; Hopefully you have contacted Microsoft and given your opinion. It is probably too late for Vista, but there is always another OS and program in the works. Perhaps if enough share your view and express it to Microsoft...
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org

Eric wrote:

i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?

Public customers who test beta software are BETA TESTERS. Get it?

Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?

They do via MSDN, Technet membership or invitation.

You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public community.
duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.
I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.
you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced in influence.
so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"
Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...
"Mike Williams" wrote:

Eric wrote: i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?
Public customers who test beta software are BETA TESTERS. Get it?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?
They do via MSDN, Technet membership or invitation.

Eric wrote:

You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public community.
duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.
I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.
you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced in influence.
so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"
Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...

You are just whining because you've been left out.
Products can't wait forever for every single person to have feedback. Did you provide feedback on your car, television, breakfast cerealm shoes, ....?
Of course you've left it to nearly the last minute to complain, rather than establishing yourself as someone a company would want to test-drive their products. Based on your posts so far, including an admission that you wouldn't be a GOOD beta-tester, then why carry on like this, unless you're trolling???

There is a very major flaw in what you say. There may in fact be those that feel the need to steal to get Vista in order to contribute. Now there are at least 2 problems: 1. Stolen from where? What guarantee is there that these have not been corrupted by the unauthorized distributor? Those type of sources are often the source for corrupted data designed to carry spyware viruses etc. Any corruption taints the testing process. 2. Those who steal have already demonstrated questionable ethics and thus anything they may contribute may be similarly unreliable.
If it was up to me (it is not), they would not be able to contribute at all since their data is questionable and the team already has their hands full without attempting to ferret out more bogus data. They are not demonstrating the basic quality's necessary to contribute quality and useful data.
You have really given reasons why some of these need to be excluded. Also do not miss the part that MSDN and TechNet subscribers have had access early enough to Longhorn/Vista make suggestions. Including everyone who desires in the process is not possible since no one including Microsoft has the resources to go through the surge of comments such an open policy would allow. Limitations on the number of Beta testers is the only practical solution. When the Beta first started, there were complaints from those not invited. Eventually many of those were invited, they just had to wait for the ramping up process to get to them. The group of Beta testers is not as elite as you seem to think. We might all be surprised at the wide demographics represented worldwide.
There needs to be limits to any program. Microsoft has set the limits. No matter where the line is drawn, someone would feel it should be moved a little more. The group of Beta testers is not as elite as you seem to think.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public community.
duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.
I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.
you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced in influence.
so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"
Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...
"Mike Williams" wrote:
Eric wrote: i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?
Public customers who test beta software are BETA TESTERS. Get it?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?
They do via MSDN, Technet membership or invitation.

OK I'm going to play nice with you, since I see this is not going to end. I will *make* the compromise.
First, whether i am whinging or not is irrelevant. i am a loyal windows customer and i would like every opportunity to help contribute and share ideas.
second, of course the dev time can't wait forever for 100% population to give comments on this... but what about "opportunity". I never said compulsory commenting, but at least give volunatry commenting a chance for people, like people like me. you mentioned cereal... there's a customer feedback hotline that will give you the *chance* to improve the product. now you might say ms has this too, but thing is... cereal can be updated, an OS is usually fixed after release
Third, please do make make assumptions on my "good beta tester" thing. i only said i never *claimed* the "good beta tester" title. just don't assume things please.
and finally, i've contributing a lot on vista via mswish@microsoft.com , i am just trying to share my view on what a better company ms could be if they can give *opportunities* for the general public to improve their products. please don't take this an insult to any of the beta testers out there.
Now, i'm very sorry that i offended you in such a way that you find it insultive... it sounds like a political debate here... and by the way... isn't it a good thing to have *more* people contributing than just official beta users, don't you agree? regards
"Mike Williams" wrote:

Eric wrote: You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public community.
duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.
I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.
you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced in influence.
so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"
Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...
You are just whining because you've been left out.
Products can't wait forever for every single person to have feedback. Did you provide feedback on your car, television, breakfast cerealm shoes, ....?
Of course you've left it to nearly the last minute to complain, rather than establishing yourself as someone a company would want to test-drive their products. Based on your posts so far, including an admission that you wouldn't be a GOOD beta-tester, then why carry on like this, unless you're trolling???

hi
i agree those who steal vista should not be able to have say on the product since they are unethical at first. but how about the majority of public people who are "ethical" and didn't steal the product and have only access to screenshots on the fan sites out there? I think that their only source of idea where they can drawn improvement ideas from.
and sure capacity can be a problem, but with the size of microsoft and their "suggestion message decoding" machine that scans the elements of the mass suggestion mails, i'm sure ms can do a better job. but.... this should not be an excuse for excluding the others. cereal bars (yes this again.....) from Arnotts or Nestle or whatever have a customer feedback line, they don't set restrictions like "first 300 customers only" like that... so why should a big big company like ms would do so?
and sorry if i don't know this.. i don't know how the feedback mechanism is for Vista, i don't know if you need a username and password before they authenticate you're a *legal* Vista beta tester before they'll accept your feedback, but that's MS's problem for that anyway
but i'm surprised you said beta testers are not as elite as they seem. well... i honestly don't know anything about them... jsut hope MS can take more suggestions from the other public sector before locking things in. you see that my main problem.... locking the gates before public has the say...
ok... i guess at least we can agree on one this which is definitely unfair... people who stole vista from bittorrent should not be able to contribute unfairly....
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

There is a very major flaw in what you say. There may in fact be those that feel the need to steal to get Vista in order to contribute. Now there are at least 2 problems: 1. Stolen from where? What guarantee is there that these have not been corrupted by the unauthorized distributor? Those type of sources are often the source for corrupted data designed to carry spyware viruses etc. Any corruption taints the testing process. 2. Those who steal have already demonstrated questionable ethics and thus anything they may contribute may be similarly unreliable.
If it was up to me (it is not), they would not be able to contribute at all since their data is questionable and the team already has their hands full without attempting to ferret out more bogus data. They are not demonstrating the basic quality's necessary to contribute quality and useful data.
You have really given reasons why some of these need to be excluded. Also do not miss the part that MSDN and TechNet subscribers have had access early enough to Longhorn/Vista make suggestions. Including everyone who desires in the process is not possible since no one including Microsoft has the resources to go through the surge of comments such an open policy would allow. Limitations on the number of Beta testers is the only practical solution. When the Beta first started, there were complaints from those not invited. Eventually many of those were invited, they just had to wait for the ramping up process to get to them. The group of Beta testers is not as elite as you seem to think. We might all be surprised at the wide demographics represented worldwide.
There needs to be limits to any program. Microsoft has set the limits. No matter where the line is drawn, someone would feel it should be moved a little more. The group of Beta testers is not as elite as you seem to think.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public community.
duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.
I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.
you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced in influence.
so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"
Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...
"Mike Williams" wrote:
Eric wrote: i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC customers is unfair don't you agree?
Public customers who test beta software are BETA TESTERS. Get it?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their feedback mechanisms? mswish@microsoft.com?
They do via MSDN, Technet membership or invitation.

One other thing. Earlier you suggested you may not be a good Beta tester. But from what I have seen, the Beta testers come from almost all experience levels. In my opinion, the only ones not qualified are the ones who always have to call someone even for the most basic information. So unless you fall into that category, do not sell yourself to short in the future. If I was making the choice (which I am not), I would try and have at least several % that are really not experts but are comfortable enough to at least install Windows from scratch and install all appropriate drivers.
-- Jupiter Jones [MVP] http://www3.telus.net/dandemar http://www.dts-l.org
"Eric" wrote in message

hi
i agree those who steal vista should not be able to have say on the product since they are unethical at first. but how about the majority of public people who are "ethical" and didn't steal the product and have only access to screenshots on the fan sites out there? I think that their only source of idea where they can drawn improvement ideas from.
and sure capacity can be a problem, but with the size of microsoft and their "suggestion message decoding" machine that scans the elements of the mass suggestion mails, i'm sure ms can do a better job. but.... this should not be an excuse for excluding the others. cereal bars (yes this again.....) from Arnotts or Nestle or whatever have a customer feedback line, they don't set restrictions like "first 300 customers only" like that... so why should a big big company like ms would do so?
and sorry if i don't know this.. i don't know how the feedback mechanism is for Vista, i don't know if you need a username and password before they authenticate you're a *legal* Vista beta tester before they'll accept your feedback, but that's MS's problem for that anyway
but i'm surprised you said beta testers are not as elite as they seem. well... i honestly don't know anything about them... jsut hope MS can take more suggestions from the other public sector before locking things in. you see that my main problem.... locking the gates before public has the say...
ok... i guess at least we can agree on one this which is definitely unfair... people who stole vista from bittorrent should not be able to contribute unfairly....

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message

There is a very major flaw in what you say. There may in fact be those that feel the need to steal to get Vista in order to contribute. Now there are at least 2 problems: 1. Stolen from where? What guarantee is there that these have not been corrupted by the unauthorized distributor? Those type of sources are often the source for corrupted data designed to carry spyware viruses etc. Any corruption taints the testing process.

Oh. Please. Take a reality check when painting the Scene, and you'll see that all's Good in the Hood ;)
Inspiration can come from the least likely of sources, and even a little can go a very long way. Also, when looking to improve, it pays more to listen to the group who tends to disagree with you than to those who just nod along and play nice.

why ms listen themselves

Windows Vista

Why MS Doesn't Listen To Themselves?

Windows Vista

User login

Related topics